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From: volker@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de ( Volker A. Brandt )
Subject: Re: Lack of APL Discussions 
Message-ID: <1993Apr14.173837.23839@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de>
Sender: usenet@olymp.informatik.uni-bonn.de
Organization: Applied Math, University of Bonn, Germany
References: <C54DJr.3CA@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> <734371670snz@apl.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1993 17:38:37 GMT
Lines: 59

In article <734371670snz@apl.demon.co.uk> bowman@apl.demon.co.uk writes:
>One of the things that gives me great difficulty when talking to clients is
>that they've got it into their heads that APL is no longer a topic of any
>interest to IBM.

Indeed!  Although you make it sound like it isn't so, whereas I believe that
there's some truth to this thought.

>The typical scenario is that IBM sold these large mainframe sites either
>APL or products like IC/1 (or both) in the mid-eighties; the customers then
>built a heap of stuff using it. When we talk to them today we find:
>        the application code is awful, because illtrained people wrote it

Absolutely true!  You forgot to mention that it's also totally undocumented,
and the people who wrote it can't remember the specs for the code, much less
the actual way it works ...

>        the user interface is appalling

Also true, all the stuff I work with uses AP126 in cludged panels, or line-
oriented input with the session manager.

>        the management think it's all APL's fault

Make that "the management, the users, and the computer center"

>        the management think IBM don't want to know about APL any more

Yup.

>        the management don't want to know about APL any more.

Yup.  Make that "the cc management hates APL with a passion" :-(
In my case, this stems from the fact that the original APL programs I service
were written by a user [ie someone who knew the problem at hand and taught
himself how to solve it in APL], and the program proved to be vital, hence
APL was forced on the cc dept, with no suppport whatsover.

>I think it would be an interesting group exercise (and beneficial to very
>many of us) to try to set out The Arguments For APL As They Pertain In The
>Mid-Nineties.

Please CC me a copy of this paper -- I could use it :-/

>>Is it possible that APL has traditionally provided a nice safe
>>environment that's pretty insulated from the operating system
>>and many APLers never got outside the APL environment enough to
>>find their way into things like the network?

David has a point there.  Also, large commercial sites tend to have a closed
shop mentality, it's very difficult to convince the cc dept of such a site that
net access is not a threat to their existence.

-- Volker
-- 
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Bitnet:   UNM409@DBNRHRZ1                              Volker A. Brandt
Internet: volker@sfb256.iam.uni-bonn.de                Angewandte Mathematik
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